A Management Question for Cerulean and Other Long-Term LLers

[Mrs Lard]

I've taken this quote (see below) from Sarah's (Cerulean) blog http://cerulean.extrapounds.com as I want to ask her about it and I think it might be helpful for others, too.

(For those of you who haven't seen Sarah's photos, do go to the before and after shots. They are inspirational.)

Sarah - where are you with this now? How far are you from taking the final plunge into Management? I am sensing that you are so nearly "there" from your posts and blog but is how you feel closely related to the BMI 22.5 figure?

And finally, did you get anywhere with the slimming down of calves? This week has been leg weight loss for me but on the thighs not the calves. And, having carried so much weight for so long, they are super strong and super thick!!

Would appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks so much.

Mrs L xxxxxxxx

"The other interesting thing ... is that my counsellor (who has been doing this since the programme began) actually advises getting to BMI 22.5 and THEN losing a couple of pounds short of whatever you lost in week 1 (your glycogen load) as this is the weight that you will regain in management. Now of course some people don't need to be BMI 22.5 and as a slim person you may have a lower glycogen load than you did as a morbidly obese person, but she observed that her people that got through management tend to fluctuate by about 7lbs. So the lesson is not to expect to lose another stone in Management. I think that some people refer to Management as 'refeeding' because of this suggestion as some clients go quite low and gaunt before finally getting their glycogen back. Apparently my theory about dropping your BMI to 20-21 to shift any remaining problem areas before gaining a few lbs is also pretty sound.

Interesting.

Anyway - I am off to look up ways to slim down my calves. I shall be sure to let you know the results of my research"

 

[Cerulean]

Aggh - I just lost a hugely long reply!!!
Will write more later

 

[Cerulean]

Right then - here's the answer! Maybe this will take my mind off how grumpy I am tonight. (It wasn't just Rigby & Peller, but also Shishedo that let me down - my LLC had recommended going to them for the makeup makeover of a lifetime and the woman just asked me if I wore foundation, I said 'no' and she proceded to put the wrong colour foundation on my hand and tell me all about foundation - then I asked her if she could help me try out different looks and she said 'We have eyeshadows.' I can't think what my LLC was thinking!)

Anyway - as for the calves - I haven't done much exercise this week - been too busy with a big project - a couple of walks and cycling to work but that's it. I haven't lost an inch off my legs for some weeks now.

I am considering a couple of options - due to finances I had to stop my Rolfing sessions which I think might have helped...it looks like pilates, yoga and all that sort of stuff will help with my calves - all the websites seem to suggest walking and cycling and certain stretches and mainly pilates - but I might just have to accept that I have heavy calves.

I do know that I want to drop my stomach sag as much as I can so I do want to use LL to get right to the end - maybe BMI 21 just so I know I can get to my full potential - as you can tell, it's unbearable at the moment, but I might as well get through the pain barrier and get the job done. After today I also realise that I want to lose a few inches off my bust so that I get to a real size 8-10 and hopefully the far more shopping friendly 32 DD. I found some nice bras on fig leaves. I should have just not bought the R&P bra - but it does feel good even if it doesn't match any of my pants and I'll just live with it for the next month until hopefully I fit into something sexier.

They say you 'just know' when you are ready for management. And I know that I am not. I think - weirdly that I've realised that I am actually a thin person - was always told that I couldn't be - I was always told I was clumsy and big and chubby and plump even when I was tiny. At the beginning of the journey if you had told me that I would realistically think about being 8 stone something (not for good, just to make sure I can have the best foundation I possibly can to rebuild my body from) I'd have told you to push off. I think I do have at least a stone to go, because I want to give my self esteem every possible chance I can. I'm very much a work in progress - and I have no idea what number is right - I think LL is actually not terribly helpful in this respect - they aren't very good with women who have never been thin as adults. I'll tell you more when I know more! Hope that helps.

 

[Mrs Lard]

Dear Sarah

Thank you so much for such an amazing response - from the practical side and from the emotional side. I totally understand what you mean about realising that you might, well, more than might, underneath, be a tiny person. That is exactly what I have said to my mother, best friend, etc; it's a shock/revelation, isn't it? It's incredible (and very sad, I find) to think that we have spent our lives believing one thing and living out that belief (I am fat therefore I will be fat and adopt fat behaviour) only to discover the opposite is true.

I'm going through a mourning stage right now, not massive, but just processing what that has meant to me. Going to Rigby and Peller (one week before you) just opened the floodgates of emotion - because it symbolised the beginning of that mourning. You've been fantastic and right; you've bought fabulous clothes along the way to recognise your achievements - I've done the opposite and hung on until practicality dictated that I had to get some clothes that fitted.

Like you, I am really, really struggling, as are my other Foundation friends who started at the same time as me. We've all lost a similar amount of weight and we seem to have hit the infamous wall!

I really liked what you wrote about management, not being "there" yet and "I might as well get through the pain barrier and get the job done". That struck a HUGE chord with me. I think your attitude is spot on.

It (this bit of the LL journey right now) IS unbearable; you are correct. 100%. But I wonder if this is so difficult because it is the threshold or the tipping point; once we move beyond this, we know we will be slim. Even thin, in your case. At that moment, no one will be able to say otherwise.

And, while that will be absolutely amazing and fantastic, I also fear the pain that will go with it. I can only speak for myself but, as I am already in mourning, I don't doubt a huge wave of anger (at myself), distress and all sorts of other intense emotions is coming my way and will wash over me as I come to terms with the fact that behaving like this (being big and all the associated behaviours) has come at enormous cost (personally and professionally - for me). Of course, it's not the end of the world and I will work through it - as will you and all the other LLers who get to the "other side".

I guess it's hard because this stage really is about coming to terms with what's gone before and what lies ahead; in Management, you look ahead and are dealing with food. It's the same with Foundation, you are working towards a goal of the end of Foundation and a minimum loss of 3 stone. Development is all about, what? My feelings have been 'it's about being in limbo' because we don't have a specific goal - as you rightly observe, this is the one part where LL is not prescriptive on the weight side of things. It's all about finding that adult voice inside ourselves.

Anyway, I fear I have rambled on so I will just say, again, massive, massive thank you and I wish you well this week. Let's try to be good to ourselves!

Take care.

Mrs L

 

[Cerulean]

That just struck a huge chord (oof get us with the chord striking - we've almost got a concerto going) with me...although one surprise I have had (a pleasant one!) is that I am not mourning or resenting the fat years and I really thought that I would. I know that my binge the Weds before last was part of my resentment over my behaviour, but never over my actual fatness - in Harvey Nicks yesterday I thought 'thank goodness I'm thin now and not when I was earning a third of the money I am on today - I'd be so depressed!'


Thank you for being there for me this weekend. You are something of an inspiration to me and I hope that comes across!

These things always come in threes don't they? Well this morning I took myself off to pilates class and the explanations were so dreadful I almost walked out - I just lay on my back sucking my tummy in for an hour. Nice work if you can get it - I must have just got out of the wrong side of the bed all weekend

What you say is right. We are not well trained for the happy endings - the returners in my group got this step wrong - they seemed to expect that the world would just change for them at this point - I have a feeling that the emotional upheaval and the struggles you face at these tricky points teaches you that it isn't fair, you have to learn to deal with the bad days with different tools. My somewhat unruly food record (way to go, rebellious and free child- you found a way round what was bugging me yesterday to express some form of insight!)

Before I went to sleep last night I remembered a thing from The Artist's Way - that this week I am supposed to ask for answers before I go to sleep and hey will be answered in my morning pages. I actually answered the question before I fell unconscious but the answers all came tumbling out on to the paper. The lightbulb I describe in the unruly thought record was

'You have taught yourself that when you are in a bad mood, like everything else you have tried - bath, telly etc - food is also not the answer - so you do not need to use it like that ever again.'

After not quite knowing what the question was to ask, I went to the loo and found myself staring at the lining of my Rocketdog shoes (they have pretty rainbows in them) and wondered why I was staring at them. A bit of scrawling got me to realise that I love rainbows - and I remembered as a child loving anything with the full spectrum on it and how (I have synaesthesia) the colours would make me salivate - I think it's why I paint so much. And then I thought that the answer to a bad mood and constant displeasure is finding pleasure and love and joy. So I wrote down 'WHAT DO YOU LOVE' in big crayola colours. And this morning I wrote about a thousand words about things that I love.

I feel much better now. Ah - yes - management - yes - I subscribe to Edison's theory of perspiration and inspiration. Put the 99% work in and you'll get 1% spark that makes the genius whole.

I was also talking about the returners in my group who didn't do that work at the end who didn't quite get there or quite follow management to the letter who are back 3 years later. I am an addict, but I refuse to add returning to LL to my list of addictions!

My LL journey has been a pleasing combination of self-validation - I can stick to something and I am not a quitter - and also accepting that I am good enough as I am.

 

[Mrs Lard]

Way to go with your reframing!!!!... "in Harvey Nicks yesterday I thought 'thank goodness I'm thin now and not when I was earning a third of the money I am on today - I'd be so depressed!"

LOVED IT!

I felt so inspired when I read your response. We're making music!! But not in THAT way!! LOL!

I am going to reproduce some of our discussion in the blog because a couple of readers don't come here and I think it will help them. And it will help me, too. I also want to clarify my thoughts because my Foundation friends know I blog but they don't know where or how (secret squirrel and all that!) AND they certainly don't know about minis! Have recommended it, of course. I think they will get a lot from this exchange too.

Very glad to be connected in this way for this absolutely critical bit; one thing I learnt from Foundation was that I learn better with others. So, as we take these all-so-important steps, let's keep focused! My own copy of The Artist's Way is in storage; when I finally move back into my home, I am going to dig it out since I never got beyond...morning pages! Not sure I could cope with media blackout week but hey....

Sarah, you are amazing. Your tenacity and determination are infectious and enlightening.

Keep going, my friend; you're getting there! And how!

Mrs Lxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Goombagirl]

Hiya Mrs L; read this with interest.

The other interesting thing ... is that my counsellor (who has been doing this since the programme began) actually advises getting to BMI 22.5 and THEN losing a couple of pounds short of whatever you lost in week 1 (your glycogen load) as this is the weight that you will regain in management. Now of course some people don't need to be BMI 22.5 and as a slim person you may have a lower glycogen load than you did as a morbidly obese person, but she observed that her people that got through management tend to fluctuate by about 7lbs. So the lesson is not to expect to lose another stone in Management. I think that some people refer to Management as 'refeeding' because of this suggestion as some clients go quite low and gaunt before finally getting their glycogen back. Apparently my theory about dropping your BMI to 20-21 to shift any remaining problem areas before gaining a few lbs is also pretty sound.

I am now officially on management, having finished the "route to management". I am also at my original goal of 9 stone (exactly). I had overshot this by a few pounds (not intentionally) which with hindsight I am very pleased about as I have put on three pounds during the last month but don't need to panic! I am definitely feeling less "shrivelled" now, and my clothes aren't any tighter so I wonder if this means my glycogen and water have finally returned. Now every kind of food is "allowed" I am going to keep my food journal again, to make sure I don't get carried away.

 

[AmandaJayne]

Hia Cerulean and Mrs L

Just taking a bit of time to catch up with new threads and am loving this one.

It seems that there is no cut off point when we finish one part of LL and move on to another there is no 'end' or new 'beginning'. Whatever happens to our physical appearance, we are still inside the same people inside. That does not change. It can be a bit of a disappointment to realise that everything is the same in a lot of ways. I expected that though.

To go off on a tangent for a moment, I was watching a programme about the pensioners who made that record and got to visit Hollywood to go on a chat show to promote it.

One lady was 99 years old, a tiny frail person but I watched it and realised that the person inside was timeless. We are all timeless - I am the same person as when I was 6, or 16 and when I am eventually 66 or 96 - I will still be me, but just look very old and wrinkled. Sadly the elderly in this country are judged badly because of their appearance, written off. It must be so frustrating.

When I was on the cruise I got a couple of comments which suggested that because I was 'slim' I didn't need to worry about what I ate. They looked at my physical appearance and made a judgement - it was not an accurate judgement because they didn't know of my struggles, but it illustrates that we all judge others on their appearance, at least until we learn information to make a better informed opinion. How often can we do that though?

Anyway, it may be a good idea to explore these ideas more fully during management and maintenance meeting because they could help people come to terms with reconciling their new physical appearance and emotional/mental states.

 

[Mrs Lard]

Hi AJ

What a fabulous post. And who is the foxy lady?!?!?!? AJ you look a million dollars; it has really inspired me as I can clearly picture your before shots on holiday with your daughter.

Lots of things to think about...again! Thanks for showing us the way.

Mrs L xxxxxxxxxx