Consolidation Weight

[Maintainer]

I thought I'd classify this question "Consolidation", so as not to confuse any newcomers, but this subject was raised yesterday in another post:

There is a kind of energy supply - glycogen - which is stored in the muscles and liver - which is used for quick release energy, the sort you need for a race, or to outrun a sabre tooth tiger.

The problem is that in ketosis you have no glycogen store - it is the disappearance of glycogen which causes the sudden drop in weight during attack.

Atropos - or indeed anyone - each time I move into Conso, I regain weight immediately, sometimes quite a lot. From the above explanation re losing our glycogen stores in attack and while in ketosis, it's therefore "normal" to regain some when we come out of ketosis (thinking about next week for me!) and have carbs again in Conso phase.

Yet I watched closely when Anja, Robin and DD moved in, and they didn't suffer the same weight hike I always do. This is one of the things which always messed up my early Consos as I then didn't dare reintroduce (ok he's adapted the programme since my last time - so no longer 2 x starches and 2 x galas from week 1 which was obviously too much for the system!). But this constant gain always made me start cutting back, depriving myself so as not to gain as much, while seeing others not gaining, and eventually I'd lose the plot.

Any comments? Advice? Why me more than some others?

 

[dukandebut]

As we've always said, Jo, everyone is different. We're all a product of many factors: some we're born with (genetics) and some imposed afterwards (circumstantial, such as nutrition, previous attempts at weight loss, etc). It's obviously a question of tailoring the diet to suit your own personal needs, which (as you've already found) is not always easy.

Given Atropos' extremely interesting comments and your own thoughts on the subject, I wonder whether you would maybe benefit from a much longer Conso period, with much more staggered introductions to carbs, etc? For instance, beginning with 1 carb day (with perhaps half the usual weight of carbs) and no galas for the first part, then gradually building up from there.

 

[Atropos]

Joanne - I dread the outset of conso precisely because I have no idea how my body will react when I start reintroducing carbs, even in small amounts.

It's becoming clearer to me now that everyone has different reaction to different nutrients - my friend is on one side of the spectrum, and those of us who only have to sniff at a piece of toast to fall asleep and wake up an 100gms heavier are at the other!

I know I have to stop losing weight (I like having boobs!) but I don't want to expand.

Unfortunately, I think we just have to take it one step at a time and introduce each food group gradually taking note of how we react to a.) prevent a sudden rush of insulin and glycogen storage and b.) to prevent the psychological switch that says "wayhey!!!! diets over - I can eat it all again, where is the toaster!!!!"

So - I'm sort of planning to spend two weeks on 6 days pv, 1 day pp before I start adding any bread, cheese or fruit or extra oatbran, then another two weeks of adding in the one meal of extra starchy food, and only then will I have my gala meal.

Fingers crossed!

 

[LVLLM]

The problem is that in ketosis you have no glycogen store - it is the disappearance of glycogen which causes the sudden drop in weight during attack.

It is glycogen that holds water in the cells, so its water weight you lose, once we start eating carbs again the glycogen comes back and holds water.
I think the key is to up your water when you up your carbs , maybe even by another litre to keep flushing the excess out?

 

[anjuschka]

I agree with everything that's been said so far. About being different etc. Maybe our diet histories matter too? As I had none, really? Some people notice the glycogen up and down during cruise - I never did day-to-day but my losses were in steps of 5-7 days apart with increases in there too.

ALso my first weekend in Conso was very very active with miles and miles of walking around London for 3 days, which may have contributed to losses at that point which then made up for the glycogen 'replenishment', and I didn't really eat masses of Veg anyway at that point, just *some* every day, and an apple.

I wanted to add that my mum is here now, she's lost about 10+kg on Dukan since Jan, and switched to Conso last week because of travelling (before arriving here) -
So she's had an okay week by the sound of it, probably two evenings with some wine some restaurant meals where she chose the 'best option' and no carbs or dessert, but she did have one dessert at some point, they were also staying with friends they rarely see so you have to be diplomatic. She's dealing with the 'bread ration' by carrying her own wholemeal crispbread. I don't think she's having much of the cheese (unless I cook with it...) or even a whole fruit every day.

Anyway she's now stepped on my scales and it would appear that she's lost some more - my comment that her scales at home *might* weigh a little different than mine fell on deaf ears

She's hoping to lose another couple of kg to get to her personal target of 70kg so I *think* she might plan to cruise a bit more when she gets home but otherwise she's calculated that she's now doing conso till August (or was it later can't remember)

Anyway I'm impressed and happy to eat dukan-friendly with her. Last night us two had a fish pie topped with mashed parsnip instead of the buttery potato mash I made for the main pie!

 

[Atropos]

It is glycogen that holds water in the cells, so its water weight you lose, once we start eating carbs again the glycogen comes back and holds water.

And I think we have to remember that Glycogen is not a "bad thing" even if it does hold onto water. It's there because we need it when we need a burst of energy!

 

[LVLLM]

Anyway I'm impressed and happy to eat dukan-friendly with her. Last night us two had a fish pie topped with mashed parsnip instead of the buttery potato mash I made for the main pie!

the parsnip sounds nicer to me!

 

[Maintainer]

Lovely to come back to this thread (after a manic morning at work) and read you all...

 

[Atropos]

I've also just decided not to start adding the carbs until the right TOTM - the combination of water retention from both hormones and diet change would be just so dispiriting!

 

[Brownie_Earthquake]

This is exactly what is happening with me Jo - two weeks on conso and already a gain of 4lbs.

I haven't even reintroduced that much - fruit mainly, two starches in two weeks and the two celebration meals. I'm thinking surely this can't be enough to have actually 'gained' but I certainly look and feel bigger and the scales prove it! Now I'm wondering what to do because if it meant cruise full time right now I am very tempted!

 

[Maintainer]

But, if my understanding is correct, per that fabulous post at the beginning from Atropos (who can hopefully respond more fully below), it is NORMAL that we regain that "water weight" we initially lose so readily on attack. We always tell new people, and ourselves on a restart, that it's "just water weight" so surely it also goes without saying that "water weight" will return when we add in carbs?

<Aside to BE -- the above is the official sensible response, and something I too need to get into my head... but I can totally comprehend your fear and worry re 4lbs up in 2 weeks. Exactly what my initial post was about.

I have of course seen this question asked before and the response I've seen on French forums (fora?) is to continue introducing with just weekly weigh ins after your PP. Not to start correcting, and reducing (as I did), and that it will sort itself out. Just takes a little time and OOODLES of patience/restraint/courage/etc etc.>

Also, something else to bear in mind - most of us here adhere strictly to the Dukan rules, but over the "dark side" some seem to have a few extras at the weekend and I've seen as much as 6lbs come back on... and go again over the course of the week...

 

[LVLLM]

Im a culprit of the 6lb gain on a weekend which is purely water
Myself and Jo have had this conversation many times ref water.
As if we didnt do a low carb diet would we automatically weight 7lbs or so heavier? so once at goal on low carb - are we really 7lbs fatter than on say weight watchers??

It is a bug bearer for me even now!

 

[Atropos]

I'm really not an expert, but it seems logical to me that when we reintroduce carbs a little of that weight (remember it's not fat!) will envitably return, and that we may need an adjustment period to deal with that.

There are three states of being, three ways of eating that we are tryng to juggle here.

a) eating to lose weight - (ie Cruise) - this has to be temporary, or we'd end up starving to death!

b.) eating to gain weight - (ie the way we were eating before Dukan, to which we must realise we can never return)

c.) eating to stay at a stable weight (ie Conso +stabilisation)

Trouble is c.) is always going to be trial and error, to find the combination of protein, carbs and good fats and exercise which will keep us stable, and will allow us to lead fulfilling lives.

And it's always going to be different for everyone, based on their physiology and psychology.

The huge PLUS to the return of glycogen and water is that you can now increase your exercise levels, and start building a bit a muscle, which will trim you down even more without further weight loss!

(I'm going to find a dance class - tango perhap? - because I'm starting to lose all the aches and pains in my legs and ankles that the weight gain caused!)

 

[Brownie_Earthquake]

I'm wondering if, for me, part of the problem could be sugar intake? I have only recently become aware that as someone with PCOS there is a degree of insulin resistance and issues with blood sugar levels - I don't know the ins-and-outs of it, just that basically it's a reason for the weight gain associated with PCOS, especially weight around the waist/mid-section.

Either way even though I may only be just over my goal, it's the fact that I have steadily gained, instead of maintained, that's bothering me. I appreciate the factor of water weight so at first didn't think too much about it, but weighing in heavier after a PP day is a first!

 

[Maintainer]

<an aside - not a dig BE - are you under your true weight though?>

In my case, I hold my hands up. I am under my true weight, so any weight which comes back on in "Conso" (or whatever I do in England!), could be said to be a normal rebound as one's "true weight" is the weight fitting to one's diet profile, age etc rather just some weight I want to weigh!

 

[Atropos]

OK - I'm thinking aloud here. (That's the sound of dust falling from the rusty cogs in my brain!)

We tend to think of the Attack phase as "super-fast weightloss stage" - (which is why, I suppose, some people want to stay there as long as possible).

Certainly that fast loss is a huge moral boost, but that isn't actually the real purpose of Attack. Attack removes all the glycogen store (which is created by action of insulin on carbs) from our bodies. Once the glycogen is gone the body is forced to seek energy reserves from the next best supply - fat - and we enter Ketosis. That's when the real weightloss, the FATloss starts.

That is why there is so little benefit in staying in Attack longer than recommended - once the glycogen is used up, it's used up, and you can move on to the far less drastic Cruise stage an know you will still be losing fat.

NOW - this does mean accepting that when we switch to Conso, we rebuild a glycogen/water store, and that, therefore, we will gain a few lbs.

BUT it's not going to completely reverse the weightloss of our Attack phase, because, quite simply, there is less of us to store the stuff. Basically - the bigger you are, the more water you retain!

For example - at 13st my TOTM sometimes added 7lbs to the scales.
But, checking my health records, when I was 11st it was never more than 3lbs extra, maximum.

So - don't despair!

 

[Atropos]

To which I'll add -

I might experiment with no-carb days (basically pv) for my TOTM in conso, to see if I can stop the bloating, (simply because it is so uncomfortable when I spill out of my bra!)

 

[Maintainer]

Stop boasting Atropos! <I'm never likely to fall out of mine, so I'm very jealous!!>

I hear you... and it all sounds good logic to me... you too I see are seeking a higher than some target weight, like me (and still mine is beneath my true weight).

I can't even use the TOTM "excuse" cos I don't have them any more (my pill stopped them so I'm lost where cycle is to attempt to follow anything).

 

[anjuschka]

I just posted this musing on BEs diary which kind of echoes what Atropos just said:

http://www.minimins.com/dukan-diaries/190405-conso-ish-post3514604.html

If the glycogen is stored in the muscle tissue - you're obviously of a more muscular build than those of us who did not see such a noticed bounce upwards! No muscles = no glycogen stored.... or something similar! Apologies if I get the medical science mixed up on this one!

As for TOTM - I'll own up now, not had one since August - must go and see my GP to check, I was assuming they would come back on ConsoStab eventually ?!?!?

 

[Maintainer]

Gosh Anja - so was it losing weight do you think that messed up your cycle? I have heard that some people have irregular cycles on low carb diets, but yours is somewhat less than 'irregular' (unless you're on the sort of pill I am, where I was warned it could happen!)