Deflating the Bouncy Castle

[spangles]

I think we're going to have to agree to differ on this on - i'm no fan of big pharma - but i do know that if big pharma could prove homeopathy worked beyond placebo, they'd be making millions out of it (after all, the profit margins on water and sugar pills are almost limitless), so why aren't they? clinical studies have to hold their results to scrutiny by scientists worldwide, including scientists paid by the opposition to disprove their findings. that's the whole point of the scientific method (which I am a big fan of) - everything is looked at with scepticism and judged only on results which can be replicated. Test, test, and test again - and then make all your methodologies and results available to the whole scientific community, otherwise you'll be discredited.

which is not to play down the placebo effect. or even the nocebo effect (where people are told that the pills / medicine they are taking is just a placebo, and it *still* works in a small number of them) amazing thing, the psyche. But it doesn't work on an acceptable proportion of people, and it can't reliably be replicated in controlled (or uncontrolled) conditions.

As for other complementary therapies (herbal remedies, supplements and the like), some of them work and become part of the received wisdom - some are taken on by the pharmaceutical companies (eg: willow bark=aspirin). Nutrition is an area where new theories have to be created regularly to make people's names (just like research chemistry, but often with less testing) - which leaves it vulnerable to awful quacks with no real qualifications like Gillian McKeith passing off utter scientific impossibilities as her own ground-breaking discoveries. One of the major reasons I put faith in CD is that it came from a research science background, and was subject to proper clinical trials, and it comes with a huge evidence-base. Like I say, i think there are correlative reasons why some diets work (anything that makes you concentrate on what you're eating and bans fatty/sugary, processed foods will likely lead to weight loss) - but that doesn't mean they're causative.

 

[spangles]

back to my own weight - it's back to where it was a week ago - so looking at a STS tomorrow, possibly. but better than it was.

 

[Sapphireblue]

As for other complementary therapies (herbal remedies, supplements and the like), some of them work and become part of the received wisdom - some are taken on by the pharmaceutical companies (eg: willow bark=aspirin).

have you seen Dara O'Briain's stand-up on this subject? absolutely hilarious, the centre of which is what you have just said (imagine an Irish and extremely cynical voice saying:
alternative medicine that works, is tested, and then becomes 'medicine'.

although i have to say a lot of alternative stuff like acupuncture probably does work, i actually tried acupuncture for my rhinitis, and it helped a bit, but i think i'm just too chronic for it to help (basically should have got treated 15years ago, but no doctor ever bothered to let my know i had the condition until recently, despite it being obvious and me frequently complaining about it).

if i ever got loads of money i would definitely try it again as an intensive course, but it was just too expensive to continue on with given it was only helping a bit.

 

[spangles]

heh - must keep an eye out for his stand up.

i don't automatically disdain all complementary therapies. i really don't. i take supplements. it's just homeopathy that winds me up. when practitioners themselves say they can't tell the difference between their medicine and a bottle of tapwater, and that there's no way of testing... then how can they charge for their products?

 

[Jelliebabe]

have you seen Dara O'Briain's stand-up on this subject? absolutely hilarious, the centre of which is what you have just said (imagine an Irish and extremely cynical voice saying:
alternative medicine that works, is tested, and then becomes 'medicine'.

Love Dara O'Brian! TIM Minhin does a poem on the subject called "storm" which I love. He's Fab.

Glad the weight has gone back down but its sucky its not down - you're due a whoosh!

 

[bettiesrevenge]

heh - must keep an eye out for his stand up.

i don't automatically disdain all complementary therapies. i really don't. i take supplements. it's just homeopathy that winds me up. when practitioners themselves say they can't tell the difference between their medicine and a bottle of tapwater, and that there's no way of testing... then how can they charge for their products?

Is that true? Was that part of study!

I can only speak from experience ( and the many positive evidential based case studies I've read before trying it) but it really has worked for me. If you don't fancy spending money on jiggery pokery then it's not for you, but at the times I've gone down that route it certainly has not been possible that it was partly my belief that made it work. But then if you believe Louise hay, she cured herself of cancer using a similar approach and Donna Eden did too.

I think the scientific world stands to lose an awful lot if any of those who have had good result became the norm, even supplements which have not been clinically trailed that are either above the RDA or where there is no RDA have recently been withdrawn from sale, except for independent suppliers.

I don't think that's because they are charging people money for supplements that are not evidential in their claims, I think it's because there is a lot of risk involved on both sides, both in a health context and a financial one. Of course a huge swathe of pharmaceuticals have plant bases, just they are synthesized and corrected to the most potent dosage for the job.

Aside from my concerns around pharmacology causing additional health problems .... My big qualms come from charging a huge amount for certain medicines especially when the real costs are minimal.

 

[spangles]

there was a discussion programme about two years ago - may have been newsnight or similar, where an (self-identified) expert in homeopathy was challenged to identify their product which had been decanted into an identical bottle to others filled with tapwater. they wouldn't try and admitted it wouldn't be possible - even with a lab full of equipment.

homeopathy is fundamentally different to all other supplements and therapies. a 6C dilution (mild in homeopathic terms, where a substance is considered more potent the more times it has been diluted) means that there is one molecule of the active ingredient for every 1 trillion molecules of water. For most dilutions used in homeopathy, the substance is even more dilute - and if you turn on the tap you will find a higher concentration of that substance occurring anyway. it's fascinating stuff - because the sheer belief in it seems to cause it to work on some people. similar to how people believe pilgrimages to Lourdes or faith healing has cured them of cancer and other conditions. Of course, in incredibly rare cases, cancers go into remission by themselves - even in patients who have tried no homeopathic or other cures. there's so much that science doesn't understand - all it can do is record and document and test.

Now if pharmaceuticals charging a profit on cheap chemicals angers you, surely homeopaths charging anything beyond the price of a bottle of evian falls even more foul of that ire?

 

[MinnieMel]

Hi Spangles,

Interesting conversation going on this thread. (I will say -- playing the devil's advocate -- that there are research and other costs to recoup when developing new pharmacuticals... but I know these does not account for all of the high mark up -- advertising, investor compnesation, etc. are also a factor... along with greed...)

I hope that you enjoy your half-term and continue to hang in there. Drink your water, do some walking or other unobjectionable fitness (to boost your BMR) and you'll show a drop soon. I think an STS shows that your gylgogen has been replaced and now your losses will be fat out of the body for good!

I'm off for the week with DD and DH for half-term, so I'll probably not be on minis much.

I hope you have a lovely Valentines' Day!

 

[spangles]

can glycogen be replaced if i'm still in ketosis? (on ss+)

 

[BordersGirl]

Don't think so Spangles xx

 

[spangles]

no, i didn't either, but Mel's been doing this a lonnnnnnnnnnng time!

 

[Divster]

Hi Spangles, Zeke found this earlier Of Whooshes and Squishy Fat | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

 

[spangles]

interesting. i def have the marbles-under-the-skin thing, too - have done for months.

 

[BordersGirl]

I have the marbles thing going on too. I thought that it was fat (which is is!) and assumed that if I kept on with the diet it might go away a bit. At least I can now feel bone under my skin too whereas when I started there was no chance of that!

 

[bluegirl]

Saw this and thought of you

Joanne Ross, Florist | Spitalfields Life

 

[spangles]

very interesting - thanks.

 

[BordersGirl]

A friend of mine is a florist (although she mainly does cruise ships these days) and she has just posted on FB that she met the Dutch lorry at 1am, got to work and they're still going (although they are now drinking wine and eating chocolate ) plus she's had to pay 3 times the price for red roses that she was paying this time last week. It's hard work during the celebratory times.

 

[spangles]

yes - i don't think i'd want a shop. just weddings.

 

[BordersGirl]

She doesn't have a shop these days either as it was too much work what with dealing with staff, maintaining opening times etc. but I guess she does Valentines and other flower 'occasions'. Her last perk of the job was a Caribbean cruise. Not bad if you can get it

 

[JezVonSavage]

When I worked in Floristry, the shop I worked for took as much on V-Day and Mothers Day as they did for the rest of the year in total

I definitely think it would work to your advantage to take a few "exclusive" V-day orders; one of a kind, high end stuff. You could make a couple of weeks wages on ten bouquets