Man suing the NHS for a gastric bypass .....opinions
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ermintrude
Gold Member
Well said cottonsocks, thank for your detailed personal perspective in things, great to hear from someone with experience of what it's really like.
cathiekelly
Member
good post cotton socks
and ......... You can tell me what you want - in 99.99% of the case, someone with a BMI over 40 usually sits at home shoveling down biscuits ................
thats a terrible terrible statement to make
and ......... You can tell me what you want - in 99.99% of the case, someone with a BMI over 40 usually sits at home shoveling down biscuits ................
thats a terrible terrible statement to make
Stackhead
Slow and steady...
Thank you Cottonsocks for giving us an insider view on the reasoning and the reality behind WLS it was a very interesting read.
I still will never understand the sheer need that people feel when the are looking for WLS, I suppose having never been in the position to feel that way. But I do still stand behind my position, regardless of financial situations etc... it should never be a right to expect surgery such as weight loss surgery on the NHS - not when there are alternatives out there.
But again i've never felt like surgery was my only option and if I had perhaps my opinion would be different.
xx
I still will never understand the sheer need that people feel when the are looking for WLS, I suppose having never been in the position to feel that way. But I do still stand behind my position, regardless of financial situations etc... it should never be a right to expect surgery such as weight loss surgery on the NHS - not when there are alternatives out there.
But again i've never felt like surgery was my only option and if I had perhaps my opinion would be different.
xx
fillymum
synful soul
Thank you so much Cottonsocks for taking the time and the trouble to allow us an insight to the your life before and after your surgery.
I have held back from posting on this thread because I felt ill informed and unable to contribute. You have changed that.
You have shown us that we should never sit in judgement on anyone without being in full possession of the facts.
The one thing I have agreed with all the way through this thread is the discrimination between those who need help for their weight problems and those who smoke or drink alcohol or even have a gambling problem.
Once again I thank you for your eloquent and informative contribution to this topic.
I hope you will stay around and become a regular contributor.
Their is a WLS section on here too.
I have held back from posting on this thread because I felt ill informed and unable to contribute. You have changed that.
You have shown us that we should never sit in judgement on anyone without being in full possession of the facts.
The one thing I have agreed with all the way through this thread is the discrimination between those who need help for their weight problems and those who smoke or drink alcohol or even have a gambling problem.
Once again I thank you for your eloquent and informative contribution to this topic.
I hope you will stay around and become a regular contributor.
Their is a WLS section on here too.
kirstabubble
Silver Member
I think the problem with the report (as with most media stories missing out key facts), is that it doesn't detail how he became overweight in the first place. Now, I admit that I have assumed that he is overweight to start with, because he ate too much - that's pretty unfair of me, I admit.
However, the various reasons you list for him being overweight do not, in my opinion, make an valid excuse for him being overweight.
For example - medicine. I was on steroids for the best part of a year and put on four stone. Now, part of that gain was the steroids, but part of it was also that I was eating the wrong things. Just because I was hungry, didn't mean I had to eat a packet of biscuits, I could have had a healthy snack instead. I got to a point, I wasn't happy with how I looked, and how I felt, and I stopped the rot. There's not necessarily a reason he couldn't have done the same (there might be, but who knows).
Also injury/physical disability - one of my best friends has a horrendous back problem - he's seen the world's best doctors (he is fortunate to have a wealthy brother), has had numerous operations and no one has any answers. He can't work, and quite often, he can't even get out of bed. Because he can't move, he does struggle with his weight. But he doesn't make excuses. He knows how many calories he should eat a day and he sticks to it. By no means easy, but if he can do it, why couldn't this guy?
I think it was very brave of you to have this surgery and it's commendable that you paid for it yourself. But I, like Stackhead, do not believe it should be available on the NHS, except where there is a proven medical reason as to why this person gained weight in the first place.
However, the various reasons you list for him being overweight do not, in my opinion, make an valid excuse for him being overweight.
For example - medicine. I was on steroids for the best part of a year and put on four stone. Now, part of that gain was the steroids, but part of it was also that I was eating the wrong things. Just because I was hungry, didn't mean I had to eat a packet of biscuits, I could have had a healthy snack instead. I got to a point, I wasn't happy with how I looked, and how I felt, and I stopped the rot. There's not necessarily a reason he couldn't have done the same (there might be, but who knows).
Also injury/physical disability - one of my best friends has a horrendous back problem - he's seen the world's best doctors (he is fortunate to have a wealthy brother), has had numerous operations and no one has any answers. He can't work, and quite often, he can't even get out of bed. Because he can't move, he does struggle with his weight. But he doesn't make excuses. He knows how many calories he should eat a day and he sticks to it. By no means easy, but if he can do it, why couldn't this guy?
I think it was very brave of you to have this surgery and it's commendable that you paid for it yourself. But I, like Stackhead, do not believe it should be available on the NHS, except where there is a proven medical reason as to why this person gained weight in the first place.
Cherry-Blossom
I CAN do this
I know we don't know all the facts in this this case but can I ask. Has anyone ever died from being 22 stone? I doubt it. They have died from the diseases that came from it NOT being overweight.
The man has diabetes that he says he is struggling to control. He has lost the sight in one eye because of the diabetes not his weight. He will die because of the diabetes, not his weight. At the end of the day if I were his GP I would be looking at getting his diabetes under control far far before even considering weight loss surgery. Especially as I think it would be highly unlikely he would get the operation if his diabetes was not under control as from my knowledge of surgery they would REFUSE to operate unless it was an emergency operation. WLS will never be considered an emergency operation.
In all honesty the reason the VLCD probably didn't work for him is due to his diabetes as I would imagine it would seriously mess up his blood sugars. I can't imagine that a gastric bypass would help his diabetes. In fact I would imagine that it could seriously seriously mess up his diabetes. With diabetes whatever medication your on you need to watch your diet. That's why SW has special leaflets and advice for those with diabetes.
So could he have been refused, not due to budgets, but because the specialists decided that the surgery was not the best, or even a viable, option for him?
The man has diabetes that he says he is struggling to control. He has lost the sight in one eye because of the diabetes not his weight. He will die because of the diabetes, not his weight. At the end of the day if I were his GP I would be looking at getting his diabetes under control far far before even considering weight loss surgery. Especially as I think it would be highly unlikely he would get the operation if his diabetes was not under control as from my knowledge of surgery they would REFUSE to operate unless it was an emergency operation. WLS will never be considered an emergency operation.
In all honesty the reason the VLCD probably didn't work for him is due to his diabetes as I would imagine it would seriously mess up his blood sugars. I can't imagine that a gastric bypass would help his diabetes. In fact I would imagine that it could seriously seriously mess up his diabetes. With diabetes whatever medication your on you need to watch your diet. That's why SW has special leaflets and advice for those with diabetes.
So could he have been refused, not due to budgets, but because the specialists decided that the surgery was not the best, or even a viable, option for him?
ermintrude
Gold Member
From what I can gather his GP approved him for WLS, with full knowledge of his other health concerns so I think it's a fair assumption that s/he has a far better knowledge of whether a VLCD/WLS/whatever else was or was not suitable for this patient than people here without medical training do.
Its true that people die of the consequences of obesity, not obesity itself - but it is obesity that causes these illnesses and the primary treatment for them *is* weight loss. Going back to the beginning - it is cheaper to help someone lose weight than it is to treat them for their consequential illnesses and the cost to the DWP.
Its true that people die of the consequences of obesity, not obesity itself - but it is obesity that causes these illnesses and the primary treatment for them *is* weight loss. Going back to the beginning - it is cheaper to help someone lose weight than it is to treat them for their consequential illnesses and the cost to the DWP.
Starlight
Gold Member
Actually thats not the case at all. Its been very well documented recently that VLCDs are proving very successful in quite significantly improving and in some cases totally curing type 2 diabetes, which is the type he has. Why on earth theyre not actively encouraging him to retry that when medical evidence is showing this as a real way of helping/curing the very condition he has is beyond me.
Yes a VLCD is hard but its a damn sight easier and safer than surgery
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judywoody
Full Member
I was the one with the "biscuit-statment"...And if you could read between the lines and a few posts further down you could see what I meant by that. It's that most people who are morbidly obese eat too much or the wrong foods - not necessarily biscuits. And I am not moving away from this statement. As someone mentioned before: depression, childhood, operations, medication and illnesses can all play a part and make it hard not to gain weight or to lose weight but it's not impossible. Of course it's unfair that other people don't have to worry about what they put into their mouth. But that's just the way it is. If I have an illness that forces me to avoid certain foods (eg wheat) I wouldn't just eat these foods on purpose or out of convenience just because it's so hard to say no and say "well, it's just because of that illness - it makes my body react to these foods - but I have to eat so I might as well....but it's not my fault it's the illnesses fault..." - If we start using these factors as an excuse not to look after ourselves, then it's nobody's fault but your own! I was obese, I had an operation, I suffered from depression, my parents taught me the wrong things about food - And YES it is hard. But once I hit a BMI of 36 I knew I had to do something! To get to 40 without even trying shows to me a lack of motivation for putting a little bit more effort into it (and this is the upshot of it - if he had REALLY tried he wouldn't look like that..there is absolutely NO scientific evidence that someone can gain weight WITHOUT eating too much - certain illnesses might make it hard to get rid of it, but not impossible and some make you gain weight but it can be controlled by eating less!! Problem is that people want to lose weight FAST - hence they go on a 500 kcal diet..which doesn't make sense whatsoever - and they lose patience if they don't lose at least a pound a week - THAT'S what makes them give up)
As someone brought up diabetes - that's a sign that he ate the wrong foods all together. If he really had a healthy diet he would A) not be overweight or B) have diabetes. I know overweight people who are healthy as anything because they eat well but they eat too much of it. We might not know the whole story but there is not much to know about a person who has a BMI of 40 - it's scientifically not possible to get to a BMI of 40 without contributing to it yourself. As I said, I know it's hard as I have been there myself. But people like that live in denial of the real reasons why they are overweight - they blame it on their upbringing, on depression, on medication, on illnesses...etc. But never look at themselves and think "ok, this is not easy but I have to change something otherwise I might be dead in a few month"...I have been there myself so it's not like I don't have a clue. But I know what prevented me from losing weight all those years. It was a lack of self-motivation!!
And yes, it is unfair that some people think it's ok to get cancer therapy if you are a smoker or a new liver if you are an alcoholic (by the way - you don't get on the donation list if you don't stop drinking..happened to a relative of mine) but that an obese person shouldn't get WLS because it's their own fault. The reason for that is that you can't get rid of lung cancer just by stopping to smoke. Or cure your liver by stopping to drink. But you can stop being obese WITHOUT surgery. WLS is a way to bypass willpower - I would NEVER go through such a dangerous surgery and dangerous side-effects because I gave up on myself. As you said that WLS prevents you from eating less calories and can even prevent your body from absorbing calories. Well, that's the same to me really. That makes your body absorb such a low amount of calories and nutrition that I wouldn't be surprised if, despite all these supplements you take, this alone will shorten your life span. We still don't know about the long term effects of WLS. This might cause other complications which will cost the NHS even more money.
I think your post really gave a good insight of your experience and I agree with many points..but throughout your post I saw a lot of evidence that you are blaming everyone else, even society for being obese. Maybe I am just not one of those people who immediately shed a tear when someone talks about "all he went through" and that might make me look hard-hearted. But in fact I am just very pragmatic. I do feel for people who have had hard time and struggled with certain problems - but what would you say if an alcoholic came up to you and told you about his depression and his upbringing and that he tries to "treat" his problems through drinking and that he might need operation because his liver is in the bin? You will probably feel for him but at the same time think "well, this is not really an excuse to destroy your life and the life of your family" - of course we need food more than alcohol. But people have different tendencies - also influenced by their upbringing. So an alcoholic might have a valid reason to turn to alcohol. But he also has the obligation to practice self-control and sort his life out - for his own lifes sake and that of his family.
And with regards to "just" having the extra can of pop every day which can add up to weight gain over the years - well, if it was "just" a can of pop (or just something worth a few more calories) - that's about 2 stone per year he would put on. I think he would have been able to notice that and stop before he reached a BMI of 40? And what about his "poor" wife? Is she not trying to help him? The amount of wifes I have seen who A) can't cook and feed their families with convenience foods and B) no nothing about nutrition is shocking!
As I said in my earlier post - the best thing would be to monitor him and to see whether he really couldn't lose any weigth on less calories before I would even consider surgery. And also as someone mentioned before to treat his diabetes first. You don't get blind and die from diabetes if you have a controlled diet (even if you don't lose weight - the right foods can control diabetes) and he takes his medication.
As someone brought up diabetes - that's a sign that he ate the wrong foods all together. If he really had a healthy diet he would A) not be overweight or B) have diabetes. I know overweight people who are healthy as anything because they eat well but they eat too much of it. We might not know the whole story but there is not much to know about a person who has a BMI of 40 - it's scientifically not possible to get to a BMI of 40 without contributing to it yourself. As I said, I know it's hard as I have been there myself. But people like that live in denial of the real reasons why they are overweight - they blame it on their upbringing, on depression, on medication, on illnesses...etc. But never look at themselves and think "ok, this is not easy but I have to change something otherwise I might be dead in a few month"...I have been there myself so it's not like I don't have a clue. But I know what prevented me from losing weight all those years. It was a lack of self-motivation!!
And yes, it is unfair that some people think it's ok to get cancer therapy if you are a smoker or a new liver if you are an alcoholic (by the way - you don't get on the donation list if you don't stop drinking..happened to a relative of mine) but that an obese person shouldn't get WLS because it's their own fault. The reason for that is that you can't get rid of lung cancer just by stopping to smoke. Or cure your liver by stopping to drink. But you can stop being obese WITHOUT surgery. WLS is a way to bypass willpower - I would NEVER go through such a dangerous surgery and dangerous side-effects because I gave up on myself. As you said that WLS prevents you from eating less calories and can even prevent your body from absorbing calories. Well, that's the same to me really. That makes your body absorb such a low amount of calories and nutrition that I wouldn't be surprised if, despite all these supplements you take, this alone will shorten your life span. We still don't know about the long term effects of WLS. This might cause other complications which will cost the NHS even more money.
I think your post really gave a good insight of your experience and I agree with many points..but throughout your post I saw a lot of evidence that you are blaming everyone else, even society for being obese. Maybe I am just not one of those people who immediately shed a tear when someone talks about "all he went through" and that might make me look hard-hearted. But in fact I am just very pragmatic. I do feel for people who have had hard time and struggled with certain problems - but what would you say if an alcoholic came up to you and told you about his depression and his upbringing and that he tries to "treat" his problems through drinking and that he might need operation because his liver is in the bin? You will probably feel for him but at the same time think "well, this is not really an excuse to destroy your life and the life of your family" - of course we need food more than alcohol. But people have different tendencies - also influenced by their upbringing. So an alcoholic might have a valid reason to turn to alcohol. But he also has the obligation to practice self-control and sort his life out - for his own lifes sake and that of his family.
And with regards to "just" having the extra can of pop every day which can add up to weight gain over the years - well, if it was "just" a can of pop (or just something worth a few more calories) - that's about 2 stone per year he would put on. I think he would have been able to notice that and stop before he reached a BMI of 40? And what about his "poor" wife? Is she not trying to help him? The amount of wifes I have seen who A) can't cook and feed their families with convenience foods and B) no nothing about nutrition is shocking!
As I said in my earlier post - the best thing would be to monitor him and to see whether he really couldn't lose any weigth on less calories before I would even consider surgery. And also as someone mentioned before to treat his diabetes first. You don't get blind and die from diabetes if you have a controlled diet (even if you don't lose weight - the right foods can control diabetes) and he takes his medication.
kingleds
Gold Member
Cottonsocks - i found your post really interesting, and it was good to get the opinion of someone who has actually been through the operation, rather than some if the illinformed opinions that have been posted.
I have to say i am really shocked at some of the opinions about how people gain weight on here. Last time i checked we were all here because we were overweight. People in glass houses & all that. We are in fact the last people who should be judging anyone.
Cottonsocks, i think you were very brave to come on here & share your experience with us - i for one am grateful to you for doing so.
I have to say i am really shocked at some of the opinions about how people gain weight on here. Last time i checked we were all here because we were overweight. People in glass houses & all that. We are in fact the last people who should be judging anyone.
Cottonsocks, i think you were very brave to come on here & share your experience with us - i for one am grateful to you for doing so.
judywoody
Full Member
Nobody is judging anyone kingleds - we all admit that we are overweight and have to lose weight and have to work hard for it. But some ALSO admit that it was their own fault and others don't - and that's the only difference.
kingleds
Gold Member
judywoody said:
Pretty sure you actually suggested that if someone had a bmi of 40 or over then 99.9% of the time they would have sat around eating biscuits & doing nothing. If thats not illinformed and judgemental i don't know what is.
And before you ask me to read between the lines of your post to find the hidden actual meaning, please remember that in a forum environment where you do not know the person, it is nigh on impossible to do this. If you didn't mean that what you said to appear judgemental, then you should not have said it in a way that made it sound that way.
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